2 to 1 odds that some knucklehead with an anonymouse screenname will bash Sony and, what they call, the Sony hi-def format.

The fact that Transformers sold more HD copies than any other title isn’t saying much.  Spiderman 3 comes out next week non Blu-ray.  Something tells me Sony will set a whole lot of the PS3 this Christmas season.

Please note that I am no a fan of Sony.  Just saying that I want one of the formats to go away.  I don’t care which one has better features or is easier for the DVD manfucturers to transition to from regular DVD.  I simply want to be able to sell a high def player to customers with confidance that that technology will stay around for a few years.  Blu-ray has more titles and more support which is why it should win.  Doesn’t matter who is on their side, just matters how much content they are putting out.

I agree with Ed, in that I want one format to emerge a clear winner, and a don’t care which one.

It’s hard for me, as a long time Sony mocker to admit that the vibe I get is that Blu-ray will eventually come out on top.

That said, I’ve got a bad case of Format War fatique.  I wish it was over already.

I like the war. Does anybody think Sony would drop the price of the PS3 if they weren’t fighting a war? Without Toshiba and Sony competing for dominance here, we would see $1000 players and $60 disks until the format faded like SACD and DVD-A. I predict the outcome will stalemate and then dual-format players will emerge, just as with DVD+ and DVD-. Meanwhile, the competition will keep both sides honest.

I see your point Glenn, but don’t really buy it completely.  DVD was a unified format, but still saw intense price competition as brands vied to sell more players than their peers.  SACD and DVD-A petered out because the driving force in music playback was mass storage of low-res mp3’s.  HQ audio was doomed to be a niche for audiophiles as opposed to mass market success.

Competing HD disc formats have just aliented and annoyed consumers.  If the industry could have “played well with others” and brought one format to market, I think we would have seen much better adoption rates than we have.

Competition and agressive pricing is great for consumers, but I think we would have seen that even with one HD format.

I’ll be clear: I want Blu-ray to win and I am spending like mad on new titles and urging others to do so, to help the format along.

If sales continue to outshine HD-DVD, Paramount and Dreamworks will be forced to rethink their decision out of sheer economic circumstances.

I don’t care about the winner from a video perspective because I think the differnces in that area are negligible.  However, I do care about it from a computer perspective. We are not just deciding on a video format - we are choosing the new standard for optical storage on computers for the next several years, possibly a decade. I do not want 20GB less storage on my computer 5 years from now simply because a competing video format was cheaper in the consumer space. Yeah, yeah I know they’ve revved the HD-DVD spec, etc. but it’s too little too late. They could rev Blu-ray too for all we know.

We have two choices, one has more storage than the other. More storage - more space to archive data, more room for home video, more room for extras, more room for uncompressed PCM audio, exactly as it was mixed at the studios...I want Blu-ray and I’m delighted to see these sales results.

For every action. . .

I’ll be clear: I want HD-DVD to win and I am spending like mad on new titles and urging others to do so, to help the format along.

I don’t care about the winner from a computer perspective. There is absolutely no reason both standards can’t co-exist - HD-DVD for consumer video, blu-ray for pc storage/backup.

We don’t need two formats when one will do.

I don’t believe they can co-exist because the masses won’t buy either of them until one becomes the standard.

Think about the big picture, not just how cheaply you can get HD video. i believe people who don’t use computers, or pay attention to what’s going on in the computer world will not decide the outcome of this. For most Americans it’s about getting something as cheaply as possible, but that invites compromise. If the sales numbers are any indication, the public is paying attention to the big picture this time.

Blu Ray players and media are problematic and limited. The blu ray players are obsolete upon release. Most dont have an ethernet port, there are NO interactive blu ray features, the media is very difficult to write for, the players are silly expensive. Blu ray only titles release on HD-DVD in Europe, and non-knowing US customers get screwed. There are only two 50 GB Blu Ray disc plants with very low yield rates. Blu Ray as a format makes no sense and is being propped up by monetary losses. Most blu ray discs are 25 GB, smaller than HD-DVD discs.

The writing is clear to me but will take a couple of years of financial and market share loss until Sony throughs in the towel.

Hogwash.
My PS3 is not problematic, nor is it limited or obsolete. It DOES have an Ethernet port and I don’t think Americans are getitng screwed except that some are buying the BS that blu-ray players make no sense.

I’m not a movie studio so I can’t confirm or deny your claims about yield rates, or the number of plants, nor do I think I or other Americans should give a hoot about yield rates let alone bother to find out what they are.  Yield rates have exactly zero impact on whether a consumer enjoys the Spider-man Collection in 1080p.

If you think Sony is going to “throw in the towel” as the dominant force in game consoles and simply dump a format that’s at the heart of the PS3 you’re smoking crack. Not gonna happen.

I just hope the higher price points on Blu-ray players equates to higher income consumers who can continue to outspend HD-DVD consumers.

I don’t live in Europe so I don’t worry about what they get in HD vs. what we get. I’d go insane trying to keep track of which country gets something on video that we don’t get here. It’s a colossal sink-hole of time to bother with that junk. Again, I’m not a movie studio so I don’t make marketing decisions on which titles are marketing to which countries around the world.

i live in europe. we always get sc.....d
less or no extras on r2 dvd, higher equipment prices.
i have a 42 inch hd ready tv, which has a wonderful fujitsu 1080p processor wich makes dvd- sd superb. 
with hvd being developed in japan with the participation of the usual suspects, why should anybody invest in either of the 2 current interim formats? they are just a way for the studios to sell old content - again.let em both die, processors/scalers are likely to improve in the meantime.

I honestly don’t see either side giving up.  Expect dual format players to be the norm.

As the owner of a potentially problematic (though as of yet flawless and superior) 60” SXRD I can say I was at once a proud supporter of Sony. I do however recognize what we all have been reminded of, which is Sony’s previous attempts (Laser Disc, MiniDisc, Betamax) to offer a “superior” format albeit via exclusivity and/or forcible content exclusivity.

I think the precedent has shown that regardless of my 100+ LD’s the LaserDisc was replaced by the better, smaller, more affordable and accessible DVD. And to add insult to Sony’s injuries, in the case of the Beta vs. VHS war, beta was hands-down better in most all regards (in terms of PQ, ect). Other things like Mini-disc, and the Memory Stick are more, unfortunate examples of Sony’s proprietary thinking that have been detrimental to the concept.

This business model doesn’t always fail, look at Apple. Macs and iPods (sans hacking) couldn’t be any more proprietary, and yet through clever marketing and slick design have carved a niche that neither competes directly with, nor shies away from mainstream. Regardless of the (potentially true) fact that the PS2 was heavily responsible for the adoption of DVD (players, as incorporated into the device) you cannot make a solid argument for the widespread acceptance of a new format based on Sony’s history.

I personally do not see this format (Blu Ray) as being presented in any less of a #### manner. The fact that Sony & the BDA, when given the oppurtunity, decided to NOT work with the HD DVD camp and develop a unified product signifies to me that they are not doing this for the consumer, but rather taking yet another chance on “maybe” winning another war.

I also agree with those who stated that this “war” is good for consumers, inasmuch as the price war will benefit us - As long as quality does not begin to suffer as the demand for more “ammo” in the war begins to elevate. I love that my cable co. just added 5 more HD channels, but I hate that they compressed the hell out of all the HD channels to make bandwidth.

I find myself, an avid Xbox360 user and HD DVD viewer actually hunting for a great deal on a PS3 at this point for the sole reason of BD playback. All the “experts” forsee a minimum 18mo war, and I for one like to see everything in HD, and its true that the PS3 is still the best deal for a BD player. Why? Even if the BD loses, it will still play games for years.

Do I want to give in and become neutral? No. Am I making an impact by suffering (oh, the agony!) by missing out on some great titles? No. Am I a sucker if I spend $500 on a game system (with, currently NO games [of interest to me]) just to watch the other 1/2 of the movies I like? Yes. I am that sucker.

I have read all the papers, and heard all the arguments for and against both formats. I simply cannot support BD winning on possible technical merits. HD DVD is ready, its available and its consumer price friendly. If what we all (should) really want is an end to the format war, and reasonably priced hardware and software, I simply must conclude that HD DVD has done their due diligence.

HD DVD will continue to gain support as long as the Blu-Ray players remain ridiculously expensive.  Currently a Toshiba HD-A2 can be purchased at Wal Mart for $198 and with a rebate for 5 free HD DVD movies it’s not a bad deal for many who can’t afford to shell out big bucks just to watch movies in HD.  The movie choices aren’t that great IMO, and Blu-Ray has similar offerings for free movies if you’re willing to pony up for the expense of a Blu-Ray player.
I have remained on the sideline in regard to purchasing either waiting to see how it all unfolds. One thing I hate is how some studios have taken a big payment to be exclusively HD DVD.  It’s really annoying that you have to have both types of players to be able to watch the movies you like in HD.  The manufacturers of HD DVD players, notably Toshiba, have been aggressively going after the market with prices consumers are more willing to pay.  Blu-Ray’s lead in the market has been mainly because of sales of the PS3.
I personally favor Blu-Ray for it’s optical storage capabilites as well as having more information on a disk including lossless soundtracks.  With the current price of Blu-Ray discs I think it will be years before it will be a cost effective storage solution.
In spite of preferring Blu-Ray I expect to not be able to pass up a good deal on a HD-DVD player this holiday season.  Guess I’ll be waiting on Blu-Ray until later, and it’s not my fault.  Meanwhile I’ll probably be picking up a few HD DVD discs.  So who’s winning the format war?  Hard to say, but I’m betting a LOT of HD DVD players will be sold this holiday season.  BLu-Ray may be the better technology, but they need to take notes from HD DVD in regard to marketing.

Sony did not invent LaserDIsc – Pioneer did, and kept it alive as a viable consumer video updgrade alternative to VHS for over a decade. I wouldn’t consider LaserDisc a failure, as the movie industry and CE manufacturers made a small but steady stream of profit from it.

Soundzilla,

It appears after some research that I misspoke when I accused Sony of Laserdisc, however my research also indicates it was not Pioneer either. Although initial creation credit goes way back to the late 50’s it seems MCA & Phillips (in a joint effort, ain’t that nice) actually developed the product.

No doubt Pioneer was a very big part of the modicum of videophile grade success LD enjoyed, but we can’t really give them credit for creating it.

And, as I stated, as a LD owner (still) I wouldn’t say the concept of LD was a failure, but as a format, 10yrs or not, it IS gone now. With a 2% market penetration in the U.S. doesn’t speak to success for me. Very niche, very expensive and very quickly removed from the lexicon upon the arrival of DVD, sadly.

I’m surprised you don’t have more to comment on with regards to my original post. Of course those are my thoughts and opinions, and they are yet malleable and open to change if I am convinced to feel otherwise.

I think too many people on forums like this one are looking too deeply into Sony’s involvement with Blu-ray. Just because Sony has produced consumer electronics that never caught on doesn’t negate their dominance in the console gaming and TV industry historically. Toshkba and Microsoft are not immune to fsilure either so I would take all this hooey about Sony’s behavior and failures and dismiss it outright. It has no bearing on why people are buying BD.

Then there’s the “Better technology always loses...look at Betamax and Lsserdisc” crowd. If that were an absolute, we would still have black & white TVs and CED discs would’ve beaten out Laserdisc...the list is endless. This notion that the better choice akwsys loses is just plain silly.

Of course, any good HD-DVD fan is going to argue that BD isn’t the superior format to begin with. Putinng video performance aside (because I think arguing over which HD image looks better is like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin)...we are choosing the optical disc format to replace DVD-R/RW on our computers for the next (probably) ten years and I don’t believe consumers are well-served by having the guy who told us we’d never need more than 640k of RAM, deciding we’ll never need 50GB of storage. (that was sarcasm about Bill Gates and not central to my point). But seriously, I want every scrap of storage I can get, along with a suitable replacement for DVD. BD delivers that and I am rewarding their decision to offer me, the consumer, more storage than HD-DVD did. To me, this is not some Sony consiracy to skrew consumers just so they can squeak out some personal victory through a proprietary format - it’s a very real advantage that I know I will use. On top of my belief that more storage is good for computer users, the movie studios will be given more breathing room to do more things with additional space. It isn’t rocket science. HD-DVD is a fine video format. I don’t want it because I don’t this it meets the criteria of a true suitor to replace both DVD-Video and the burners in my computers for the next decade. I think it’s short-sighted to say that with the right kind of compression we don"t need more storage. Compression is the enemy, not Sony.

hd dvd has a 51gb disc that is approved and ready for production. They are not using it at this time because the studios are not requesting the extra space.

There was an earlier post where it was stated that 50 gb bluray discs are limited. this absolutely true. roughly 60% of all bluray discs on the market are 25gb, even less storage than HDDVD.

so in reality bluray has 25gb and 50gb discs, while hddvd has 30gb and 51gb discs. These are the facts.

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-14064/faqs/4/Index.html

“Capacity could be increased as additional layers are added (there have been announcements of 100 GB (four-layer) discs and Sony has been conducting laboratory work with a 200 GB disc)”

Looks like Sony will soon have a 200GB Blu-ray disc “approved and ready for production”. We could play this cat-and-mouse garbage all day. I supposed if we wanted to wait 40 years when I’ll be 80-something we’ll have some really cool new formats.

If studios are thinking like Paramount and Dreamworks are, no wonder they’re not asking for more space – Why should they care?  They’ve already conceded that they’ll just compress more when they need more room. Why not? They look the other way when satellite and cable companies compress the heck of their product or give us “HD-lite”.

We’re talking about NOW. If we’re going to have a format war it needs to be on decided upon standards, not one that may or may not ever see the light of day in the next year.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/19/benqs-bw1000-blu-ray-disc-recorder-for-pcs-hitting-japan-write/

http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=38038

I don’t see anything about “50GB bluray discs are limited” except from HD-DVD fans here. Maybe they should send a memo to every company selling BD burners to tell them that they’re false advertising.  Or maybe they should just admit that 50GB disc burning is here now and 51GB HD-DVD burning is not ready for prime-time yet. These are the facts.

Well it appears to me that those of you wanting your “next gen” massive optical disc storage medium NOW are willing to overlook the fact that the expense involved in producing the media is a key factor. I have had a dual layer dvd burner for several years and have yet to own a dual layer blank, why? Because even as they slowly will be replaced by HD or BD they are still cost prohibitive.
Is it not true that regardless of storage capacity (even at 2x’s the capacity) that mass production of blank HD DVD media (given that the facilities that produce dvd media CAN be retro fitted to produce the HD media and not BD) will become cheaper and more prevalent faster than BD?
I would rather have 25gb HD DVD media and a HD DVD recorder NOW at a fraction of the price than wait for the BD media to be produced at a snails pace because it technology is so advanced. To me, media storage success has always been about evolution - not revolution. Making the dvd a better dvd is an easier transition than what amounts to a restart with BD. As the experts agree that the most likely outcome in 2yrs time is that a new/third format will make both formats obsolete I have to wonder if any of this academic discussion is worth the effort to type the words.
If I were a betting man I would say that no optical storage medium is our true future. All physical media has its limits and as more intelligent and easier to produce storage devices present them self this will become evident.
I recall thinking when I bought my first memory card (128mb) that it was a crazy amount of storage for such a tiny thing, and when I bought a Micro SD card with a Gig of memory I could not image why I would think solid state memory wouldn’t be the future of storage.
So while in concept, and perhaps for those willing to pay, BD does offer a superior storage potential to HD DVD, but as a medium for suppling entertainment to the masses - cost effectively - I just don’t see how it compares. Not to say at the retail level the competition is not close, but behind the scenes how can BD be profiting from all this?

With the advent of market penetration of broadband internet what exactly is your need for portable mass storage discs anyway? At my company we don’t even use DVD’s that often to send data, we simply upload gigs and gigs of files to where they need to be. I have seen alot more ruined optical discs than I have seen unrecoverable mirrored hdd’s.

Soundzilla,

Just google 25gb bluray. You’ll be amazed at what you find.

All HDDVD players are required to have twin video processors (for those rich interactive menus) and internet connectivity, which is used by the studios to further the interactive experience of the end user. Internet interactivity also leads to further revenues for the studios. Try it out and you’ll see why.

Bluray has had no such requirements of their players up until this coming month when BD1.1 standard takes affect. Even with BD1.1, players will still not need internet connectivity although they will finally be required to have twin video processors for those rich on the fly overlay menus. As bluray upgrades there minimum requirements, all the old players become POS’s. Hows a bluray player with 1 video processor going to handle the new bluray movies that will be released with interactive on the fly menus? I guess they could put 2 versions of the movie on the disc they they do have 50gb of storage right....

Bottom line - The reason Paramount/Dreamworks went with HDDVD and dropped Bluray is because their product is better standardized and easier to work with, not to mention it is more robust and offers the studios more options with the internet capability.

Before shining off the internet advantage, look into what warner bros. is doing with the movie 300 and the internet features they added to the hddvd version that they can not do with their bluray release. Also note that the the HDDVD version of 300 can also be played on a standard DVD player something NO bluray disc can do. Perfect for taking the disc with you on the road or loaning it to a friend who doesn’t have an HD player.

That’s all.

Electronic House Article: New Panasonic $499 Blu-ray Player Features Picture-in-Picture

HD-DVD was probably “easier for Paramount and Dreamworks to work with” because of the political pressure and palm-greasing than some technology integration.

Somehow “rich, on-the-fly overlay menus” didn’t make my short list of important features for an HD capable replacement for DVD and computer storage.

The notion that because new hardware comes out with new features, the old hardware is now a POS is just absurd. I guess with that notion those new HD-DVD players that can’t do 1080p are POS right out of the gate.

I just got 300 in Blu-ray form Netflix. I didn’t even notice it didn’t have some newfangled chip and overlays that HD-DVD has and I didn’t miss it. If it’s that important I’ll make sure my next Blu-ray player has it. I still need one for our living room and guest bedroom but I’m guessing they’ll find a way to update my PS3 with firmware that does it somehow using all the processing power in that box.

Aren’t those hybrid DVD/HD-DVD discs more expensive than the standard HD-DVD versions? I thought I heard something like that somewhere but could be wrong. I’ll wait patiently for Apple to integrate Blu-ray into all their machines as I did when DVD-ROMs started appearing on computers.

Wow. It’s so easy to say “I don’t miss the new features...who cares about new features?” Of course you didn’t notice them, because you can’t notice them. Now if you were at my house and saw them in HD, then went home and popped in 300 on BR, you might miss them. I dunno. I don’t have a V8 in my car, so I don’t miss all that power, but when my friend and I go to lunch in his Mustang GT, well I get to see what I’m missing. No, I don’t feel i have to go buy a new car, but I understand and respect his desire to have MORE than me. He has more because he PAID more - See where the trouble is in my analogy? You PAID more than me for your Blu Ray device, and I get MORE out of my HD-DVD device. That’s just wrong. And as a consumer you should be a little disappointed, despite your want to support your cause.

Really? I paid more but you got more? Let me know when you dig up that extra 20gb of disc space. And be sure to drop me a line when you’re playing console games and ripping music to your HD-DVD player’s integrated 60GB hard drive.

To stick with your car analogy it’s more like we both have V8 mustangs. Mine goes just as fast but magically seats 8 comfortably instead of 4. Yours comes with the standard Delco sound system while mine came with a 1500W competition sound system. Oh yeah, I almost forgot...for some reason there are a lot more companies making accessories that only fit mine. You got the chrome trim on the fender wells and the girl silouette mud-flaps though so enjoy that stuff while ya can!

You let me know when you NEED that extra 20gb of space, since all the goodies I get you can’t use, so don’t need to store. And I have been playing a GREAT assortment of HD Games on my HD Xbox360 since November 2005, and watching HD DVD’s on its ad-on since last November 2006. I can also rip music, but since my Xbox360 is a Media Center Extender I can play music and video from ANY PC in my house (several terabytes worth of data).

And analogy or not, no Mustang ever fit 4 people comfortably, let alone 8! And what accessories are you referring to? I’m pretty sure the Xbox aisle has a pretty good amount of extras in it, maybe I just can’t see the PS3 accessories due to all the DUST that has settled on them…

“To stick with your car analogy it’s more like we both have V8 mustangs. Mine goes just as fast but magically seats 8 comfortably instead of 4.”

But you don’t need the extra space if you only have 3 friends. Bigbrain’s post is very valid. Sony will ALWAYS shaft the customer for money. It has in the past, it will with BD. Sony does not care about YOU. They care about $$.